How Frances Cook Built a Successful Independent Podcast (and How You Can Too)
Independent podcasting is booming, but making money and building a sustainable show can feel like a mystery. Award-nominated podcaster Frances Cook, host of Making Cents, joined me on Wanna Podcast? to share how she took control of her career, monetised her podcast, and built an audience without relying on big networks.
Whether you’re just starting out or ready to scale, Frances’s lessons are essential for anyone who wants to turn podcasting into more than just a hobby.
1. Why Independence Matters in Podcasting
Frances’s journey into independence started with a simple but powerful realisation:
“Ownership is everything. If you don’t own your RSS feed, you don’t own your audience.”
Big networks can offer exposure, but they may also ask for steep ad revenue splits (sometimes 60/40 in their favour) and sneak clauses into contracts that put your intellectual property (IP) at risk. Frances warns podcasters to:
Never give away your RSS feed – it’s the lifeline to your audience.
Retain full rights to your branding and music – otherwise, you may be forced to rebrand later.
Scrutinise contracts carefully – make sure you understand exactly what “IP retention” means.
For beginners who lack editing, promotion, or ad sales experience, a network might still be useful. But for Frances, independence meant freedom, flexibility, and keeping control over her work.
2. How to Monetise Your Podcast Without Selling Out
When Frances first started monetising Making Cents, she discovered she had a hidden talent: negotiation.
Her approach?
Ask for more than you think you’ll get – brands won’t negotiate you up, so start high.
Focus on value, not just audience size – Frances emphasises trust and niche expertise, which advertisers love.
Deliver what you promise – if you ask for premium rates, make sure your content and professionalism back it up.
Monetisation doesn’t happen overnight, but Frances’s success shows that with the right confidence and systems, independent podcasters can secure profitable sponsorships.
3. Continuous Learning: Staying Ahead of the Game
Even with Making Cents ranking as New Zealand’s top business podcast, Frances doesn’t get complacent.
She sets aside time each week to level up her skills, whether that’s taking YouTube courses, experimenting with video, or learning new audience growth strategies.
“If you’re not leveling up, you’re going to get left behind. The industry is moving too fast.”
Her biggest tip for podcasters: make your own learning and upskilling a priority, even when client work, sponsors, and production take up most of your schedule.
4. Why Video Podcasting Can’t Be Ignored
Both Frances and I agree: podcasting isn’t just audio anymore.
44% of podcast discoverability now comes through YouTube.
Video builds stronger connections and allows for content repurposing on TikTok, Instagram Reels, and LinkedIn.
Even if video isn’t your strength, it’s becoming non-negotiable for audience growth.
As Frances puts it: “I’m a radio girl, but tough. That’s what the audience wants, so I need to figure it out.”
5. Celebrating Wins (and Aiming Higher)
Frances’s proudest moment so far? Being a finalist for Best Business Podcast at the Radio and Podcast Awards, going head-to-head with legacy giants like RNZ, NZ Herald, and MediaWorks.
For an independent creator who only launched Making Cents a year earlier, it was proof that quality content and smart strategy can cut through, even without a corporate machine behind you.
But she isn’t stopping there. Next year, she wants to win.
Key Takeaways for Aspiring Podcasters
Frances Cook’s journey is packed with lessons for anyone building a podcast from the ground up:
✅ Own your RSS feed and IP – non-negotiable.
✅ Negotiate boldly – ask for what you’re worth.
✅ Keep learning – upskill constantly to stay relevant.
✅ Embrace video – it’s the future of podcast discovery.
✅ Celebrate progress – but always aim higher.
Independent podcasting isn’t easy, but as Frances shows, it’s absolutely possible to create a profitable, award-worthy show on your own terms.
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Frances Cook (00:00.431)
Sounds good.
Maxene (00:01.816)
way.
Today I'm chatting with Frances Cook, formerly an award-winning financial journalist. Frances has appeared widely across New Zealand media on shows like TVNZ Breakfast, RNZ, 7Sharp, AM, Newstalk ZB, and Business Desk. And now, Frances is the host of New Zealand's number one business podcast, Making Sense.
She's a qualified financial advisor specializing in investments and is passionate about increasing financial literacy across Aotearoa. She's written two best-selling books, presented as a TEDx and keynote speaker, and hosted and produced multiple podcasts, including the very popular Cooking the Books and Now Making Sense. She's joining us today to talk about how she's grown her podcast and become an authority in her industry, going from journalist to podcaster.
Thank you so much for joining me today, Frances.
Frances Cook (00:58.495)
my god, what a lovely introduction. Can I just dial you up every morning when I'm feeling a bit flat and you can just reel off all these wonderful accomplishments and I'll be like, yes, that's right, how great.
Maxene (01:09.544)
I know, I know. I feel like that's the thing when you're guest on a podcast and they intro you, it's like, okay. And people either feel like really great about it or the imposter syndrome sinks in and it's like, is that really me?
Frances Cook (01:26.059)
don't worry, I have beaten imposter syndrome down to a bloody pulp, so I'm just enjoying the compliments now.
Maxene (01:31.89)
Love it, love it. And you've talked a lot about how you were originally a financial hot mess. I need to know how messy are we talking here?
Frances Cook (01:41.521)
Well, I think I was very lucky in terms of I was so scared of money and so scared of my finances that I never really got into debt because I knew I couldn't be trusted with it. Now that would have been really, really messy. There are some people who get into tens of thousands of dollars of debt and that could have easily been me except I was too scared to move with money. But I certainly hit a point where I chased some good pay rises, chased some good career goals and I was just like,
hamster on a wheel running running running never getting anywhere and be like why am I working so hard and still feeling so fragile so like it can all fall apart at any moment which it totally could have and I really just got to the point where I was really stressed and anxious and sick of it so that was the type of hot mess I was it wasn't fun
Maxene (02:33.39)
Yeah, and you actually started your career as a political journalist and then moved into money. What made you decide to make that decision?
Frances Cook (02:38.973)
Mm.
Frances Cook (02:43.665)
Yeah, it was funny that one, isn't it? Even before the politics as well, I did some court reporting too. That was where I really cut my teeth. And I loved that, going to court and seeing these insane stories of things that happen with people. But there's a thing with court reporting where you can only be on the sidelines of some of the worst days of people's lives for so long. It kind of builds after a while. And so I had a few years of that and thought...
Yeah, I don't think I've got the stomach for this anymore. And so I went into politics and that was great. But a similar but different thing happened there where you're in this environment where it's really fun. It's really high energy, high adrenaline. There's always something happening. And what's happening is important. Huge impact on people's day to day lives. And yet you're so constantly being lied to and it's such a combative environment that
I got really sick of that side of it and it's really hard not to soak it in. You you come to this point where you're so used to people just lying to you about the dumbest stuff all the time, where literally if they said, and then I signed it with a pen, you'd be like, or was it pencil? I bet you're fibbing again. You know, you just, you start to question everything and it's hard to turn that off when you come home. So you're maybe no longer the nicest.
partner anymore, you're a bit spiky. And so I got to the point where I realized I was absorbing that a lot and now getting a bit spiky and I didn't really like that about myself. So I thought, okay, well, I don't want to do that anymore. I don't know what I do want to do. And it was I'd hit that sort of late 20s part of the career where you've built up, as I say, the pay rises, the promotions, you're doing supposedly well.
Maxene (04:10.423)
Hmm.
Frances Cook (04:38.681)
And yet I still felt financially in the exact same position. I didn't know how to get ahead. I didn't feel very secure. I knew if I lost my job for whatever reason, which happens in media a lot, that two weeks time I'd be in big trouble. Absolutely no cushion there. And I just thought, I don't know where I'm going wrong, but I feel like the problem might be me. And that was when I started listening to a lot of personal finance podcasts. And at that time,
There were no New Zealand personal finance podcasts. And so I was like, okay, this is all great, but 80 % of it applies. 20 % of it maybe doesn't. And I'm pretty sure that sometimes maybe I'm not a hundred percent on which are the bits that do and don't apply. I want a New Zealand version. I guess I'll just make it. pitched to the bosses, started podcasting about personal finance and
Maxene (05:28.717)
Hmm.
Frances Cook (05:36.177)
Just loved it so much that I've gone further and further down the rabbit hole.
Maxene (05:40.834)
Yeah, one of my favorite things about like being in the media industry and the information providing industry is that you get to learn a lot yourself. And if you can like make it work for you, like, I need to know about this. I need to learn about it for my personal life. Can I get paid to do it? Did you set out to become a thought leader or like, how did that evolve?
Frances Cook (05:51.441)
Yeah.
Frances Cook (05:59.729)
Yeah. Yes, exactly. The best.
Frances Cook (06:10.949)
It's funny, not at all, not at all. looking back, now that I look at it, I'm like, I did that quite well. That was, you would think that was very planned. And it really wasn't actually the process at all. I was just really genuinely interested in money and using money to build a good life for yourself. You know, there's a classic saying that money itself isn't important, but it impacts everything that is.
And it's so true and I just got more and more fascinated by the ways you can use money to build a life that's really meaningful and really fulfilling and you can help people that are important to you and causes that are important to you. And so I just, like I say, went further, further down this rabbit hole. And I think when you're really genuinely interested in something like that,
You can't help but become a little bit of an evangelist evangelist. Thank you. You know, you can't help but want to tell other people about it because you you can see the difference it makes people. was seeing the difference it made in my life. I was talking to other people as part of my job and interviewing them and seeing the difference that they were making in their lives and
Maxene (07:13.997)
Evangelist?
Frances Cook (07:37.189)
It just made me want to talk about it more and talk to other people about it more. And at the same time, you know, the thing with podcasts is that they are so brilliant. I'm sure a lot of people listening to this will know that feeling. You find a podcast and you're like, where has this been? my gosh, I love this. And you go back, you listen to all the old episodes, but podcasts are terrible on discoverability. Finding them is often the hard bit. So.
I know I was having these conversations, really was enjoying them, I was writing these articles, but I wanted to make sure that people knew, you know, that I was doing this and where they could come and find it. And I thought, well, you know, where do people often find this stuff? Social media. Where is everyone's social media? And so I started taking social media really seriously as well as all of the other, you know, more mainstream channels I had.
because I really believe in going to where the conversation is already happening, adding to that conversation and then saying, by the way, if you want some more, know, come over here. And it really built into that thought leadership thing quite organically just because I couldn't shut up about it.
Maxene (08:44.674)
Mmm.
Maxene (08:52.713)
Yeah, you are so active on social media and I actually remember when we both working at NZMe, we worked in different departments but my editor suggested that I reach out for you for advice on how to turn our newspaper social media around. So tell me, what do you think works best on social media? What sort of content is gaining the most traction for you?
Frances Cook (09:19.453)
It really changes depending on what's going on, you know, in sort of 2020 to 2022, everyone was obsessed by the share market. So actually quite hard data almost and a lot of numbers was suddenly going really well. And especially if you're talking about investing in the share market, that would go off on social media. Less so now, I think it's always, especially when you're talking money, it's about reading the room.
because money is so personal to people's lives. You really don't want to be that person who comes across like you don't know that butter's gone insane in price. You know, you don't want to be that dickhead. So you've really got to read the room. Right now, what's working more is sort of talking to people about the realities of day to day life and how we take control of the things we can control.
and what else we might be able to do for the other stuff, you know, so there's mindset, know, cost of living stuff, those sorts of things are going really well now because I think that's more people need to hear. And I think, you know, obviously I talk money, that's always a really important one to be sensitive to, but any type of educational content that you're doing, it's going to shift, I think, as people's needs shift. And so it's just paying attention.
Maxene (10:47.886)
Mm.
Frances Cook (10:48.061)
to what's going on in people's lives, what do they need from me right now? And it's a real, I think if you're doing education, it's a real sort of being of service mindset. What do people need? What would help out? What would I need if I was feeling a bit stressed on this front right now? And I take that relationship with my audience so seriously in terms of, I think they know that I, I mean, I don't always get it right. Nobody does.
But I think they know that I'm genuinely there to try to help, to try to make the things that we can be better. And I think that goes a long way for you will inevitably, if you're on social media long enough, you're gonna mess up. And having that sort of period of, you know, helping out and people knowing that you've got good intentions helps them be like, hey, so that wasn't your best.
Maxene (11:23.95)
Mm.
Frances Cook (11:43.697)
We're not going to yell at you, but if you could not do that again, you build up a little grace period with people. So that does help too.
Maxene (11:47.054)
Mmm, mm-hmm.
Have you had a time where something that you've put out has gone viral in the wrong ways?
Frances Cook (11:57.863)
I don't think I've had a bad viral, but I've have certainly had bad feedback. Sometimes you can especially, a lot of my stuff is, you know, a minute to a minute 30 videos, right? And so I can put something together that I'm like, sweet, nailed it. That's the thing people need to know. And A, you cannot get every T and C into that video, every possible like, this is what works.
But not in this, this, and this, and this situation, you know? So you can't get every single thing in there that you could. But also sometimes when you put something together and you feel like you've explained it, other people hear it and they hear something different. And the majority of the audience might hear something different from what you thought you were saying. And you can go into the comments and say, that wasn't what I meant, but it's still coming across in a way you didn't intend. If the majority of people are hearing something different,
from what you meant to say, you've just got to take ownership of that and say, yeah, bad communication from me, my bad, let me try that again. And again, you're not always going to communicate perfectly. So I've definitely had moments where I've said something that I thought I'd explained well, and it's come across like I was saying something totally different. Yeah, you just have to cop it. You just have to admit to it.
Maxene (13:18.606)
Yeah. Yeah. And I guess like, you know, that's always going to come, especially when you have a large audience and especially when you're talking about something like money, which is a sensitive topic for a lot of people, you're always going to have people who are taking things maybe not as intended or, you know, taking things the wrong way. And yeah, I guess like,
Frances Cook (13:26.97)
Yeah.
Frances Cook (13:33.291)
yeah.
Maxene (13:45.23)
as you say, you've just got to own up to it and cause you know, having this relationship with your audience, which as you say is so important, putting your audience first and front of mind and everything that you do is, is absolutely crucial. And you know, so when you've built up this trust, if you're potentially doing something that might damage it, you know, it can. So how, what, what advice do you have to build that trust and maintain it?
Frances Cook (14:14.759)
First of all, don't rush things. I feel like especially for the digital age, it's such a hungry beast. You can put out as much content as you like and it'll take it. You you could be putting out five or six pieces of content a day and people would still be keen for more. So you can accidentally fall into a quantity over quality mindset and you can...
sometimes be tricked into thinking I have to do more and I have to do it faster and I'll just get this out there and do it. Whereas I think taking a beat and doing less but better is a good idea. And you will see, you know, gurus or whatever, particularly on the social media side saying, yeah, you know, put out as much content as you can, just chop it up and chuck it out there.
Maxene (14:46.414)
Mm-hmm.
Frances Cook (15:10.555)
And I just don't think it's a long-term strategy. I don't think it'll work. You're going to say something silly. You're going to mess up. wouldn't? know, nobody can put out that much content all by themselves and not have standards slip. And it might work for a certain amount of time, but trust, think, is kind of all you have. And it's really hard to build, so easy to lose. There will be people that give you all sorts of advice on
Maxene (15:24.43)
Hmm.
Frances Cook (15:39.729)
how to do more, do bigger, go chase those viral moments. But it's not them that will have to deal with everything falling apart if you lose your audience trust. And if you lose your audience trust, it might not come back. That might be it, you're done. So I'm really careful in terms of I would rather give up those viral moments or give up doing as much.
Maxene (15:51.662)
Mmm.
Frances Cook (16:09.423)
in order to make sure that what I am doing, I'm really proud of. There are always, you know, I've had people sort of advise me to lean into certain controversies or rage bait or whatever. And I just, A, like I wouldn't enjoy it. I'd rather not do it than do that sort of stuff. But B, I'm just like, trust is all I have. And that might work to get a million views one time.
And then that's it, I've just killed the golden goose. So yeah, I'm really focused on make sure what I do I'm proud of, make sure that I put out stuff that I think is genuinely useful to people, genuinely helpful. And I would rather take that long-term approach because that's what I'm seeing this as, this is a proper career.
Maxene (16:56.535)
I'm in.
Yeah, absolutely. And so what would be your advice on how to achieve that long term approach as you're saying? Like what is, how do you grow an audience? How do you build engagement on social media?
Frances Cook (17:14.575)
Your audience is everything. And I think that's the number one thing is really paying attention to your audience, actually giving a damn about them and thinking about ways that you can be useful to them. Because that's basically what it comes down to. mean, my audience is wonderful and I have a really genuine relationship with them. But at the end of the day, there is a certain transaction there, right? I am helping them with something. That's why they're there.
And hopefully we also like, you know, we're in the DMs all the time. We're in the comment section all the time. It's a genuine, really warm relationship too. But I feel like, you know, if I stop giving them value, then they will quite rightly look to get value elsewhere because they're looking for money information from someone. So I'm always really obsessed with what do they need right now? How can I give that to them in a way that fits into their busy lives?
and make this a little bit easier, a little bit simpler, just take some of that friction out of their life and make this a little bit easier. And I think if you are genuinely looking to help people, then you will look for those ways that you're useful. They will tell their friends about you. Those friends will come and follow and listen as well. It takes a while, but it is if you are genuinely audience first, I think it'll come.
Maxene (18:40.526)
And then how do you balance being relatable and being an authority?
Frances Cook (18:45.341)
Mmm, that is such a good question.
It's interesting because I think I am a certain level of relatable while not always being. I don't actually share that much of my personal life. I share a certain amount, but I have very strong feelings on and I think this is genuinely different for everyone, right? But my personal approach to my family is my husband didn't choose to have a public career. My kids certainly didn't.
Maxene (19:02.914)
Mm.
Frances Cook (19:22.053)
My kids, even if they gave me permission to put them on the internet, they have no idea of what that entails. So all of that stuff is so totally off limits for me. And yet it's the majority of my personal life. Like my entire personal life revolves around my family. I'm very, very family oriented. So it's funny because I used to share a lot more of my personal life and now I just kind of can't because...
It's the weekend, I'm out with my kids, that's what we're doing. I'm not posting my kids, therefore I'm not posting. And so it's that interesting thing of I will often relate concepts to what I'm doing in my personal life, but there's only so much I can share. So I share in very careful ways. Meanwhile, to be an authority on something.
Which again is another interesting one where I'd say I'm an authority but I'm also not. You know, I'm very careful to make sure people know I've got my credentials and I've made sure that my information is correct. I'll tell people, you know, I'm a financial journalist. I research for a living. I've checked this information out. I am qualified as a financial advisor. I've made sure I know my stuff on that. But at the same time, nobody knows everything.
I'm always learning new things and applying them in new ways and letting my audience know about them. And so I think, yeah, probably on both, it's a real balance of this is what I'm doing in my personal life to a certain level, you know, and this may or may not work for other people's lives because of this, this and this. And then here are my credentials, here is what I've learned, but nobody is infallible. And I think...
when you can sort of approach it on a more human basis like that and you have that balance, you're a little bit less building yourself up for a fall because if you make if you make out like you know all and see all it's gonna go real bad at some point.
Maxene (21:31.854)
Yeah, yeah, totally. 100 % agree. And I feel like it comes back to that trust and honesty with your audience. And if you've got that relationship there, you know, if you do make a mistake, which, you know, sometimes happens, sometimes you just say something and you're like, oh shit, no, that really wasn't the right thing to say or, you know, then, then you have that relationship to be like, yeah, you know, I am owning this. did.
mess up there, sorry, we're in habit again, we're learning, we're growing, you know, and you're kind of growing alongside your audience in a way.
Frances Cook (22:09.821)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think my audience has really seen me grow from when I was just this person who was like, money is interesting and I'm going to interview interesting people about it to actually I've been doing this for a long time and I know quite a bit now and I'm going to tell you some things now to, oh, I've gone and got my qualifications and here's all the things that I've built from this. It has been a real journey that some people have been with me through the whole way. So that's...
Maxene (22:25.645)
home.
Frances Cook (22:39.385)
really exciting for the OGs who have been around the whole time.
Maxene (22:43.006)
Yeah, totally. You know, remember those days when I was a financial hot mess, you know, and it's cool when you can like grow with your audience and like maybe they were in the same situation or maybe they are now. you know, it's, think that also helps your relatability as well.
Frances Cook (22:47.215)
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah
Frances Cook (23:00.559)
Yeah, hopefully, right, because nobody's born knowing about money. It's this system that we invented. There's nothing natural about it. So whether you learn about it when you're five or you learn about it when you're 50, we all have to learn about it at some point, right? So I think that acknowledgement that nobody starts perfect is really important.
Maxene (23:04.66)
Yeah.
Maxene (23:14.83)
Mmm.
Maxene (23:21.518)
Yeah, totally. Now you were the host of Cooking the Books at NZMe, which was a top performing podcast, and I know it was like your baby, talk me through why you moved away from NZMe and went to independent.
Frances Cook (23:38.545)
Yeah, and it's one that was really, really difficult. So, Cooking the Books started, like I say, from my personal journey with money. you basically, you drill down with journalism. What is journalism? Go out, find something you didn't know about before, tell other people about it. So, great! That was basically the idea of Cooking the Books. And the bosses were supportive.
and said, yep, no, we will allow you to do this project and we will do you the great favor of putting it out through our channels, but it's on your own time and this is not your job. Fine, great. I was just so excited to do it. And then it got really successful and they kind of pulled it more and more back into being my job. And this tension grew over the years of
Both of us knew that the other one thought that they owned it and that we also thought that we owned it. And nothing was written down was the big mistake. And I think now, you know, the digital world is so much more advanced. All of these sorts of ideas behind independent media have come so much further. Now I think everyone knows that IP is everything. But we didn't know that at that time because this was
Maxene (24:48.046)
Mmm.
Frances Cook (25:07.183)
one of the first personal finance podcasts in New Zealand. This was certainly one of the first podcasts that NZMe had had any interest in. And it was all new ground for all of us. it eventually hit a tipping point because I'd sort of had the point of view of, well, it's mine and you can't have it. But I work for NZMe. I don't care. You can monetize it. I don't...
really care at all. I just like doing the work. And so we don't need to have a fight about this. And then we did hit a point where we needed to have a fight about it when I went to go on maternity leave for my second child. And they said they were going to replace me on my own podcast. I was like, well, you're not actually you absolutely will not be doing that.
Maxene (25:58.414)
Mmmmm
Frances Cook (26:01.321)
especially considering we have a content plan that was agreed upon that I've been working my butt off on, for months. but they were, they were concerned that there wouldn't be enough content for while I was gone. So we hit a real standoff and unfortunately that led to, they would say I resigned. I would say that I felt like I had no choice, but to resign. and then I was left at the end of that going.
Maxene (26:14.286)
Mm.
Maxene (26:26.03)
Frances Cook (26:30.171)
Well, I've just had a baby and I don't know what I'm going to do now. And I just thought, well, I guess this time we start something that is truly, definitely no one can contest it. Mine. And that was how Making Sense was born. And that was the second half of last year. And I've got to say horrible journey to get here. Horrible journey to get here. Very stressful. Don't recommend it. Was not fun. But amazing.
to be here now. To the outcome that we have now, where I'm doing independent media on my terms, I give commentary to all of the mainstream news outlets except for NZME, where I'm pretty sure my name is Mud. But I work with everyone else and get to do exactly what I wanted to do.
Maxene (27:21.038)
Mmm.
Frances Cook (27:26.237)
And the podcast is exactly what I always thought it could be because I'm in total control of it. That has been amazing and freeing and I wouldn't go back for anything now.
Maxene (27:41.048)
What are some of the main differences that you're finding between being an independent podcaster and being part of a big media outlet like NZMe?
Frances Cook (27:50.819)
Bye!
I'm going to just put this all on me because I don't want to speak for anyone else or their values, but I personally take podcasting very seriously. Podcasting is not just, you know, a fun new toy. Podcasting to me is the future of media that we are seeing media change. We are seeing the forms in which people want information change and I'm all in on that. I'm like, right, great. Love it. Let's...
give you exactly what you're wanting. And so I take it really seriously in terms of the highest possible quality I can, the best audience experience I can. I am not looking to cut any corners. I am not looking to do anything faster, cheaper, whatever. If I run into an issue where we might be cutting a corner, no, back up. How can we do this the best we possibly can? Because again,
I'm obsessed with my audience and giving them the best that I can. Now that doesn't mean I'm always the number one peak, but it means that's always where I'm aiming for. And it's always 1 % better with every single iteration. How can we do it better, better, better? And so it has, you know, even just this year of the podcast evolved as I lean into more of what does my audience want right now? How do they want it? What's working for them? And I think being able to be nimble.
on that front, being like, I can see the audience is loving this. We're doing more of it. And I don't think that's working. We're cutting it. It's done. I'm not debating that with anyone. I'm trusting my instincts. It has really worked so far. And I think it is down to taking the medium seriously, taking the audience seriously and always having them first and foremost.
Maxene (29:36.152)
Mm.
Maxene (29:47.854)
Are there financial differences?
Frances Cook (29:50.621)
Yes, not the financial difference. I think people would expect I earn a lot more now Which I think is not the case for many podcasters But I was also very deliberate in how I set it up because I knew I had approaches before of people who wanted to work with me in certain commercialized sponsored ways and I just said you know, I can't contractually
Maxene (29:55.423)
Mmm, that's awesome!
Frances Cook (30:20.599)
And I would send them through to the NZMe sales team and let the company just handle that. Whereas now when people approach me, I'm like, cool, let's see what we can do. And I'm pretty good at finding solutions that work. Now I am very, very careful in terms of who I work with. Cause again, that audience trust is everything. And you know, I have had approaches from companies, well,
Maxene (30:23.746)
Mm.
Frances Cook (30:47.899)
I get a lot of approaches, I literally got one this morning from someone wanting me to hock Temu and I'm just like, that's never gonna work. That's not something I A, endorse, B, would ever fit with what I've said publicly before. But you know, even certain crypto things, I couldn't genuinely endorse that because I've talked before about how I don't invest in crypto.
Maxene (30:55.395)
Mm.
Maxene (31:02.877)
Mm-hmm.
Frances Cook (31:14.991)
I think you can invest in crypto and do a good job in it. I don't. So if I was going to be sponsored by, you know, a big crypto exchange, well, it's going to come across really funny, isn't it? And so I'm really, really careful on who I work with that it's a good fit. And that's a good values fit. I'll often work with companies that I'm like, okay, you are someone who talks to clients all the time.
you are in the financial services space, you see different things than what I see. And so we can work together and you can, you know, offer your solutions to my audience as long as I think that they're a good solution. We can talk to my audience about that. But part of what you're going to be bringing to the table is also value and education for my audience as well.
you are going to be showing us what you see happening on the front lines. You're talking to all these clients. You're seeing what's happening out there in the real world. Let's talk about it. And so that's another way we can make sure it really works and is something that is genuinely adding value for the audience as well and building trust for them. So that's really worked. And so I was very deliberate and careful in how I set up the business to make sure like I'm expensive to work with.
That's just it. I will not do cheap deals. I would rather take no deal than a cheap deal because that's going to divert my time and energy away from a big deal. So I do very few commercial deals. The ones that I do, I'm expensive as hell and I'm going to make sure it's delivering a whole lot of value to my audience. And so far that's working. But again, it's that real focus on value first.
Maxene (33:02.04)
Yeah.
Frances Cook (33:07.727)
looking at the long term and backing yourself to do the best and be the best.
Maxene (33:14.262)
Absolutely. 100%. And making sure that you align not just from a like, you know, industry perspective with a sponsor, but on a values based and ethos based perspective, because it is not just the money, as you say, it is about that trust with your audience and having that trust and that relationship with your audience first is actually then going to be more beneficial to the sponsor because
Frances Cook (33:32.082)
Yeah.
Maxene (33:42.894)
They're going to trust you more to be, know, Francis said that that was, that that was good. So, you know, I know that she is only going to bring valuable sponsor deals in. So I know that they are good. Therefore I'm going to use them and you know, whatever capacity. So it's so important to have that for all parties involved that alignment is so crucial.
Frances Cook (33:42.909)
Exactly.
Frances Cook (33:59.719)
Exactly.
Maxene (34:09.454)
So talk me through your process about how you vet these sponsors.
Frances Cook (34:13.993)
It's usually companies, because I've been bouncing around the space for so long and I'm very lucky that a lot of quite big companies do want to work with me. So they're usually companies that I already know about or I know their business or I've dealt with them in one way or another before. And because part of me leaving NZME was so public.
Maxene (34:24.27)
Mm.
Frances Cook (34:41.937)
they also, you know, I was approached by some who were like, Hey, what are you doing now? You know, what's, what's happening here and can we work with you now? Because, you know, we tried to get in touch before, didn't work out, you're under contractual difficulties. about now? So I think having quite a high profile was incredibly valuable. having, you know, quite a large social media presence.
Maxene (34:50.094)
you
Maxene (34:57.55)
Mm.
Frances Cook (35:08.293)
was incredible, incredibly valuable. You know, I, I post a lot on Instagram and TikTok, but also LinkedIn and the decision makers and the people who hold the purse strings all on LinkedIn. So I got some very good LinkedIn messages. and I, I made sure to, know, have those conversations where I was just totally upfront with people. Like it was.
Maxene (35:22.061)
Mmm.
Frances Cook (35:31.621)
I already knew these companies and I often knew the people involved. So like that level of vetting was kind of done. Like I knew, I knew their product. I knew what they could offer the audience. That part of it was pretty easy, but it was in terms of the values fit. And I was just super upfront and took control of it and laid the boundaries and said, here's what I am willing to do. And here's what I will never do. And here are the terms of it.
Audience first. If I ever have to choose between you and being real with my audience, I'm picking my audience. And if that means I break our contract, I'll break our contract. I am never ever going to put you above my audience. And that's the terms of this deal. Because without my audience, I have nothing. So that's it. And just being super duper upfront about that with them and very lucky in terms of
Maxene (36:18.926)
Hmm.
Frances Cook (36:29.083)
There was really no pushback on that front. think, again, in terms of having quite a high profile and people having seen my work before, they'd also seen the results. So there was already a lot of that proof of, okay, she might be a bit stroppy and she might boss us around even though we're giving her money, what the hell. But...
Maxene (36:40.814)
Mm.
Frances Cook (36:53.949)
There are results here. She has an audience who is really listening to her. And if we want to be on this journey, then I guess it's on her terms. So it was really in terms of everything I'd built up until that point. again, it comes back to that really long-term thinking where I'd built something without even necessarily realizing what I was building at the time.
Maxene (37:02.385)
Mm.
Frances Cook (37:20.257)
I just knew it was really important to me to never disappoint my audience and to look after them in a certain way. And then other people who I didn't even necessarily realize were watching at the time are seeing that relationship I'm building and saying, yeah, we would really like to be part of that. And now in terms of the companies that I work with, you know, I literally was in Auckland yesterday and catching up with a couple of the sponsors.
and we were having really good conversations. And at one point, like a slightly emotional one where they were talking about some of the clients they've been dealing with at the moment and how cost of living is hitting and the hard decisions people are having to make. The companies that I work with actually genuinely care and actually genuinely are on board for saying, yeah, let's put out as much financial education as we can that is free to the audience.
that is high quality and that helps people make good decisions. And then when they're ready to level up past that, they know that we're here and waiting to work with them. But it's actually so genuine from them. And I think I feel very lucky to work with people who genuinely believe in this the same way I do. And it is just about having those hard conversations right at the beginning, I think.
Maxene (38:26.892)
Mmm.
Maxene (38:43.566)
Can you talk me through exactly where your money comes from and what monetization streams work the best for you?
Frances Cook (38:53.181)
So it's mostly the podcast and it is those sponsorship roles. So people can sponsor a segment. I've also got my title sponsor Kiwi Bank. Love them for that. So they are over the entire podcast, which is great. But I also have section sponsors where we're talking about certain topics and that is sponsored by certain companies, you know, so I talk.
Mostly about investing, property, career, budgeting and savings and all of those are sort of split out. And so that works really well. I'm taking YouTube more seriously now. You have to, that's massive. And that is something I don't think that will ever be a huge earner, but it is, you know, there's ads on there. So that's great.
Maxene (39:37.748)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Frances Cook (39:51.645)
And then social media, there is the option for increasing the push for those section sponsors across my social media as well. But it all really comes down to the podcast. The podcast is the heart of it all.
Maxene (40:09.902)
What are your main tips for independent podcasters when it comes to making money?
Frances Cook (40:20.249)
know exactly what it is that you offer and what is your point of difference. So I don't just talk about money. I talk about money in a very simple way and in a non-judgmental way. So it is a really warm, inviting, we might be talking about all sorts of complex things, but it's not going to feel complicated.
Maxene (40:47.982)
Mm-hmm.
Frances Cook (40:48.253)
We're going to talk about how it relates to your life and you are not going to get told off for buying a coffee. You know? And so that's me. There are other people that talk about things in different ways. There are now far more personal finance podcasts in New Zealand, which is brilliant. There are people who will smack you around the head and tell you to pull your socks up. And some people want that, but that will never be me. You know?
Maxene (40:54.958)
You
Frances Cook (41:14.965)
And there are other people who focus entirely on investing. There are other people who focus entirely on budgeting. But I know what I offer and that is that broad overview of money that isn't too complicated and that you're not going to feel judged for and that's me. And so when I go and think about who I want to work with and it's been a mix. I have been approached by some companies and I have also proactively gone out and talked to some other companies and said, hey,
Maxene (41:31.587)
Mm-hmm.
Frances Cook (41:43.877)
I think you'd be a great fit for this. Shall we chat? When I know exactly who I am and who I'm talking to, that makes it really easy for me to then be like, okay, who's a fit and who's not? You know, I work with Kiwi Bank. They are the little battler. They are the New Zealand bank, not the big Aussie competitors. They are also very committed to supporting
Maxene (41:57.976)
Mm-hmm.
Frances Cook (42:13.925)
Independent media or up-and-comers they like being part of the Kiwi Battler story. So a great fit in terms of their across podcasts know what they are and are happy to be involved. But B they also really fit my audience in terms of doing things a bit differently and being interested in different ways to make life good and being really interested in that New Zealanders stories.
So that really worked and really made a lot of sense to me. Whereas, you know, like I say, if I was going to look at something like a crypto exchange, technically, you know, they're in the money world. They're great. I have no problem with crypto exchanges. I just don't think it would fit and it wouldn't feel right to my audience. So I've never had that conversation. And so I think, yeah, once you're really clear on who you are and what you offer, that makes it a lot easier to be like, okay.
Who should I be approaching? Who should I be open to approaching me? And also, you know, are there any areas of my podcast which I could change a bit in order to bring in a sponsor that could work along this sort of way? You know, I think it's between two beers guys working with zero and having that little segment where they answer audience questions about business. Brilliant. I'm sure that was just, I haven't talked to them about that. You know, this is me putting words in their mouth, but I'm sure that was designed.
specifically to include that sponsor, but it's offering genuine value that works. Brilliant. And it's because they know who they are and who they're speaking to, and it works.
Maxene (43:45.773)
Mm.
Maxene (43:53.942)
One of the biggest questions that I am getting from clients is about like how do you structure, like when you're doing a pitch or proposal for sponsors, how do you structure different packages and what should people be asking for in terms of money? Do you have any tips on how people can work through and navigate those decisions?
Frances Cook (44:17.468)
Talk to as many other podcasters as you can. I have found other podcasters really generous in terms of talking to me about what they're doing with their pricing and what sort of packages they are offering. But there's also so much information just on the internet. It's not all New Zealand focused. So be really careful to sort of vet that. But it can also be useful to see what's happening overseas and does that apply here?
So you're gonna have to do as much research as you can and hit the old Googles, hit up as many people as you can, gather all of that information. And then after that, you're just gonna have to go for it, which I think really freaks people out. But I always start with, I'm gonna ask for the moon and then maybe they'll knock me back down, but I'm gonna start here.
Maxene (44:59.278)
Mmm?
Frances Cook (45:09.745)
because nobody's gonna try and negotiate me up, are they? So I'm gonna start high and see if it ends up me getting knocked back down. so far, actually, I've asked for the moon and people have said, okay, as long as you deliver, then you better make sure you deliver.
Maxene (45:23.214)
Yep, yep, absolutely. Now for independent podcasters who are looking at joining a network like iHeart or Rova, what advice do you have?
Frances Cook (45:37.393)
Be very careful.
I look, I think it can work. And I've had this conversation with a few people recently. I think it can work. But my biggest thing is don't ever, ever let go of your IP. You will find some and I'm this is not me saying iHeart or Rova or whoever. There's all sorts of networks and companies around. And I have heard some horror stories of things written into the fine print of contracts.
Maxene (46:10.766)
Yeah.
Frances Cook (46:11.015)
where they're trying to retrospectively take ownership of your podcast. Ownership is everything. Never ever ever lose, especially for your podcast, the RSS feed is the number one most valuable thing you have. If you do not have that RSS feed, you have nothing. And so sometimes they might try and trick you by using different words. If they say that you retain IP, they might mean,
the title and the artwork, but they're going to keep your RSS feed. That's your audience. That's what you need to be able to take. So that RSS feed and the IP and the ownership of your podcast don't ever, ever, ever let go of that for anything or anyone. Now, in terms of if you want to sign up to some of those bigger companies, be aware that they might try and take a huge chunk of your advertising. I'm talking like 60, 40 splits, which to my mind,
Maxene (46:46.094)
Mmm.
Frances Cook (47:09.711)
is insane. You can't have that much of my ads. Are you joking? I'm doing all the work. Get out of here. But that's me coming from a position of I've been working in this space for years. I have very successfully monetized my podcast. I've got a really good system going. I don't feel that I need someone else helping me promote it, edit it, record it. I know how to do all that stuff.
Whereas if you don't have good understanding of microphones or cameras or you need help with editing or you don't have a strong social media presence and you need someone to help you get the word out about it, then it might genuinely be useful to you to team up with a big player who can help show you the ropes. And maybe, you you would need them as well to sell the ads. Maybe you don't have a big enough profile yet.
monetize your podcast successfully companies are going to look at you and say well who are you because it can be really hard to build audience for a podcast really hard so I think there are if you're right at the beginning of your journey then yeah potentially be aware they're going to take a huge chunk of your earnings and don't let go of your IP or your RSS feed for anything
Maxene (48:32.43)
That note about the RSS feed, honestly, so important. I've recently been working with a client who, it wasn't with one of the big players, but just through her previous podcast editor, they had control of her RSS feed. And as the new editor coming in and distributor, I've had to ask for permission for her own podcast to be transferred to her. And it's such a scary...
Frances Cook (48:58.504)
Ugh.
Maxene (49:01.762)
position to be in, thankfully they were great to deal with, but you should never, like you should never be just an admin on your own podcast. You need complete ownership over everything. And that's your RSS feed, but it's also your music because if someone else has paid for the licensing of it and then you can't get it anymore, there's your branding. need to rebrand.
Frances Cook (49:06.461)
Thank goodness.
Frances Cook (49:19.548)
And then.
Maxene (49:28.824)
So yeah, it's really important to make sure that you are going through all these contracts with a fine-tooth comb, that you have got ownership over everything, that if you decide to move on for whatever reason, everything is already yours.
Frances Cook (49:45.287)
Yes, yes, so important, so important. That ownership is only gonna become more and more important as we keep going through this independent media digital revolution. Ownership is everything. That's the entire thing you're building.
Maxene (49:57.3)
Mm. Yeah, 100%. So what's been the biggest learning curve for you as you've started managing your own show?
Frances Cook (50:07.901)
I think that I'm capable of different things than what I thought because it's interesting, you know, talking about the monetization. That was the bit I was most terrified of that I was just a bit I'd never done those deals myself before I'd been on the sidelines for them. I'd seen how they might work. I'd never done them before and I was a bit nervous of having to take control of that and go into negotiations turns out really good at that.
So really please. So definitely, I think one of my big things I've learned is just give it a crack. Just go for it. Fake it till you make it. But the other thing I think is there's just always so much more to learn. And that if you feel like, know, my previous podcast was the number one business podcast in New Zealand. Making Sense is right at the top of the charts now, always dominating the business podcasts. Great. Love it.
but even when you're in that position and it's such a good, happy position to be in, there's always more you can learn. There's always better that you can do. And you'd better not ever get slack because there's always someone who would love to take that crown off you. And deservedly so if you get slack and start taking your audience for granted. So I think my big thing is making sure I always set aside time.
for my own learning and development too. And that's what I'm really working on at the moment. I've signed up to a couple of courses on YouTube to make sure that I am across that because YouTube is new for me. So really making sure that it is set up well for that and develop, you know, setting aside, even if it's once a week, some time to be like level up, come on, level up, level up. What can we learn? What can we do?
Because there's so much that the business will demand from you. I'm doing a million different things all the time recording episodes scripting going over artwork talking to sponsors writing articles still and columns. So there's a million things happening. It would be so easy to get bogged down in that day to day and not be leveling up and I think if you're not leveling up you're going to get left behind. It might not be immediate.
Maxene (52:27.822)
Mm.
Frances Cook (52:29.511)
But once you are starting to get left behind, it's really hard to speed up again and catch up. So it's always looking for what's the next thing? What's the new thing you can offer people? What's that next stage up? Because your competitors will be, you'd better make sure they don't catch you napping.
Maxene (52:45.14)
Yeah. Yeah, you are so right. And as you say, it's so easy for your own upskilling to become the thing that does kind of fall to the back burner because you've got so many other priorities in your day, other things that directly make you income. Obviously they're going to take the priority. But you know, if you're, if you're able to keep relevant, if you're able to keep learning, if you're able to keep on your toes,
That's playing the long game again as we're talking about because that is going to be what keeps you relevant. You might think you know everything and you might know everything, but give it a couple of years and you won't anymore. know, this, this industry is so fast paced and constantly evolving. You know, if we just even look at the growth of AI within the last few months even, you know, it's constantly changing. And if you are not keeping
Frances Cook (53:23.933)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Maxene (53:41.28)
on your toes, keeping your game up, learning, evolving, growing, and taking your audience along for the ride. You know, that's where the ball starts to drop.
Frances Cook (53:51.239)
Yeah, 100 % exactly. Even in the time that I have been running this new independent podcast, it's only just about to hit a year old. Even in that time, I've made little differences, little tweaks. I just think you cannot do a podcast now really without at least having an eye to video. You might not start with video, but you should be thinking about it and thinking about how you're going to make that happen.
and bringing in video when you can because video is now massive for podcasts. That's simply what it is. And video is not my natural home. Video is not somewhere, you know, I'm a radio girl. That's where I got my start in radio journalism. And that's why I loved podcasts. But hey, tough. That's what the audience wants. Then that is what the audience shall get. And you got to figure it out.
Maxene (54:40.14)
You know, I was the exact same. started my career in radio. I literally remember saying to one of my bosses at one stage when I was doing like editorial stuff, I am not interested in video. And I said that to her, she was like, maybe you should like be careful what you say. Yeah. And like,
Frances Cook (54:51.676)
Yeah.
Frances Cook (54:58.013)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe you might need to change your mind on that.
Maxene (55:04.034)
I do say to my clients, like if video freaks you out and if that is becoming an obstacle in getting started, then by all means, like you don't have to have it. But video is really changing the game in podcasting. 44 % of discoverability for podcasts comes through YouTube. That's a fact. And having your audio and aesthetic, yeah, it can be a way to get started.
Frances Cook (55:09.085)
Hmm.
Maxene (55:30.36)
but it's not gonna be moving the needle. So if you're serious about podcasting and if you're serious about wanting to grow and grow your audience, you're gonna need to start thinking about how you can incorporate video.
Frances Cook (55:45.053)
100%, couldn't agree more.
Maxene (55:47.458)
What's been your proudest moment in podcasting?
Frances Cook (55:53.501)
I know, getting nominated for best business journalist, best business podcast, sorry, at the Radio and Podcast Awards, because that's the big one. That's the big industry dogs. That's the people who everyone knows their names decide on those awards. And I was the only independent in my category. And there's very few independent podcasts get in there at all.
Maxene (56:02.509)
Yeah.
Frances Cook (56:22.993)
And I was a finalist and next year I really want to win it. Still, you know, to be a finalist, was stoked because I was up against the Herald, RNZ and MediaWorks. And I was just like, and there's little old me. I only started the podcast on September 30th. So that's episodes across October, November, December. Whereas they had the whole year of stuff to submit.
Maxene (56:27.242)
Yeah, awesome.
Maxene (56:36.942)
Mm.
Frances Cook (56:50.139)
And there's little old me, independent, only just started, only just got off the ground. And I was just so stoked that I'd made it. And I was just like, you know, it's really hard to pull back and assess your own work because you tend to fall to one or the other end of the scale. It could be either depending on the day where you're either so harsh on yourself and like, nah, this sucks and who would ever want to listen to this? Or you're like...
This is amazing and it's so great and what do mean that everyone isn't listening to this? You know, it's really hard to get perspective on your own work and to get that as an independent who'd only just started. I was, yeah, I was stoked.
Maxene (57:31.308)
Yeah, absolutely. That is huge. As you say, not many independent podcasts at all get even a step in. It's kind of like this exclusive little, you know, big radio thing. So that is, that you should be so chuffed. That is awesome.
Frances Cook (57:45.789)
I was, I was really, I made my husband come with me to the awards ceremony though, because I was like, like you say, it is very exclusive, it's quite cliquey. And I was a bit like, oh my god, I'm gonna have to go. When I'd ever gone to the awards before, you're going with everyone else you work with from these giant companies. And I was like, um, yeah, can my husband come? I don't want to go by myself.
Maxene (57:54.446)
Mm.
Maxene (58:00.929)
Yeah.
Maxene (58:06.304)
Yeah, I guess that's the thing about being independent is you are independent.
Frances Cook (58:13.373)
It was really funny as well. He said to me afterwards as we were driving back He was like I see why you wanted me to go that thing is quite cliquey. I was like, yep
Maxene (58:20.75)
Yeah, for sure, for sure. Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Frances. Like you've shared some super valuable nuggets of info, which I'm sure is going to help so many aspiring podcasters, especially around, you know, making money, making it sustainable and keeping track of your ownership and making sure that you're not handing over anything that you shouldn't be. Thank you so much.
Frances Cook (58:45.031)
No, thanks for having me, it's been a delight.
Maxene (58:47.756)
I hope you've gained some insight and tips that you can take into your own podcast. And if you enjoyed today's episode, make sure that you hit follow and leave a review. And if you listen to this and thought, I need some more strategy around my podcast, talk to an expert. You can get an hour of my time to talk strategy, making money, marketing, or anything else that you need a hand with. The hour is yours and you can bring anything that you like to the table.
Get in touch on Instagram, Maxene London Creative or at maxenelondoncreative.co.nz. Thank you again for listening and I will catch you next time on Wanna Podcast.